Sandy Message Board MemberUsername: SandyPost Number: 50Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 07:29 pm:
Due to repeated "transgressions" and complaints from others in our community, I've asked our webmaster to block posts from both Erh and Kevin_quinlan.
Michael_t Message Board MemberUsername: Michael_tPost Number: 30Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 11:25 pm:
Why should I buy a NAA 32 Guardian over the 32Seacamp The are both about same size and weight. In fact at a glance hard to tell apart. At retail price their about $60 difference. So state your case for one or other.
Sandy Message Board MemberUsername: SandyPost Number: 38Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 08:31 am:
The Guardian has no magazine disconnect, has a more easily operable 1911-style magazine release, has admitedly small, but easily upgradable sights, is much easier to take-down for cleaning, is designed to reliably fire ALL 32ACP ammunition, is widely available, and is supported by NAA Customer Service.
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 4Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 09:55 am:
I have a .32 Seecamp and a .380 Guardian. I had to return the Guardian to NAA because of a serious failure-to-eject problem. Shipping UPS-Overnight cost over $40.00 (two-day was less than two dollars cheaper). I have yet to hear from NAA about the receipt of the pistol or the fix. I agree with Sandy's assessment of the differences. But in my view, while the Seecamp cost a lot more money when I bought it new, it was reliable from the git-go. Plus, the Seecamp's construction is flawless - cosmetically nicer than the Guardian. If the Guardian worked, cosmetics would be only mildly interesting. But they must work to be useful. sopsax
Billinpittsburg Message Board MemberUsername: BillinpittsburgPost Number: 1027Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 01:13 pm:
While I have generally heard good things about Seecamps, Teddy Jacobson, a pistolsmith who has lightened and smoothed the trigger pulls on many of our Guardians without cutting any springs, regards the Guardians as the best built of all the pocket pistols. He claims that the internals of the Seecamp don't match the externals. Other than that, Sandy said it all.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2237Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 05:23 pm:
I have 3 Seecamp and 2 Guardian pistols. I always have a Guardian on me. My Seecamps live in a safe.
Garyp Message Board MemberUsername: GarypPost Number: 13Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 10:21 pm:
QUOTE: "I have 3 Seecamp and 2 Guardian pistols. I always have a Guardian on me. My Seecamps live in a safe". Why so George? ____________________________ Gary
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2240Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 07:53 am:
Hi Gary: My two Guardians have been customized. Both have had the NAA carry package done, had Gutter Snipe sights installed, extra slides fitted (without any sights), and were sent to Texas to have Teddy Jacobson do his magic on their actions. Both guns were designed to fire any available 32 and 380 ammo. You just can't do that with the Seecamp. Now, don't get me wrong. I love my Seecamps, and I do intend to buy and carry the Seecamp 380 in the near future (well maybe not the near future), but overall, the Guardian is in my opinion the finest pocket pistol in its class available today. Granted the 32 weighs 2 oz more than the Seecamp, but when I hold both in my hands, I really can't tell the difference. There will always be a market for small light pocket pistols. I've been a strong advocate for NAA to consider building a Seecamp clone (especially the 380), or try and build a
n alloy 380, dropping the weight to under 15 ozs. Recently, Sandy (NAA's president) announced that they are working on a lighter Guardian. Teddy Jacobson, interesting enough, prefers the Guardian to the Seecamp.
Michael_t Message Board MemberUsername: Michael_tPost Number: 33Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 10:21 am:
I really like the idea of useing any 32 ammo and not just brand x Over at plastic wonder web their always talking about rim lock and trouble with that. One more thing since Iam a lefty any chance of hitting Mag release. Keep the info coming I starting to lean towards G How many mags come with the pistol..
Peter Message Board MemberUsername: PeterPost Number: 5Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 11:11 am:
I'm also a lefty and have not had any trouble with accidentally releasing the magazine. The release is placed in such a way that it doesn't seem to be an issue. The guardian comes with two mags.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 205Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 12:16 pm:
In all fairness, I wonder if Teddy's assessment included all the Seecamps made, including the new CNC built, or just the earlier ones.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2241Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 12:35 pm:
Hi RJ: I assume he does, since Seecamp has been using CNC equipment for some time. But it was important for Seecamp to build the smallest and lightest all metal 32/380 possible. While NAA was more interested in building a "bullet proof" pistol.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 206Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 02:57 pm:
"I assume he does, since Seecamp has been using CNC equipment for some time." GEORGEH ----------------------------- I would not want to assume that, it is hard for me to envision Brand new CNC machine doing less than "Good" work. The Seecamp is what it is, I would think if someone deciding to buy the SC would be choosing it for the smallest and lightest. But must say, Teddy is entitled to his own opinion, I just wondered at what time period was he referring to.
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 145Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 05:02 pm:
Sopsax When did the "fail to Eject occur"
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2242Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 05:55 pm:
Hi RJ: This thread started my someone who wondered why one over the other, other than a $60 difference. If I blindfolded you and put one of my Seecamps in one hand and the Guardian in the other, you couldn't tell them apart (except if you stroked the slide and felt the Gutter Snipe sights or felt the Seecamp mag shoe).
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 10Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 06:33 pm:
Phydeaux88: The failures-to-eject happened randomly - almost every magazine-load - enough to make me NOT want to depend on the thing. I fired 500 rounds through it for break-in purposes, over several trips to the range. I used PMC and Winchester ball ammo (range did not allow anything other than ball). It would occur on any round-number in both magazines - second, fourth, last - it didn't matter. When it happened, the slide drove the empty casing into the edges of the chamber and it often required that I remove the slide to clear the pistol OR use needle-nosed pliers to pry the casing off the sharp edges of the ejection port. I am familiar with pistols - 40 years of law enforcement experience and more than that with pistols. I tried various hand positions, limp wrist, tight wrist, etc. but nothing prevented jams. From what I've read on the NAA site, the ejection system relies on the up-coming round to partially eject the empty, so I suspect both magazines had weak springs. It is at NAA now (seven days, so far). I'll report back when it is fixed (if it is). To say I'm not impressed is an understatement. The concept is good (small, concealable, adequate power) but it must go bang each time the trigger is pulled - mine didn't. All of my other pistols, small, medium and large go bang, including my .32 Seecamp. sopsax
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2243Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 06:58 pm:
All of my Seecamps and Guardians have worked flawlessly. My 380 Guardian is SN 51, and even it was flawless. Not a single failure, not even once. The Guardian doesn't have an ejector. So a last round stovepipe was within its original design specs.
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 11Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 07:13 pm:
Georgeh: Yes, I understand about the last round, but when the slide jams the empty casing, open-end first, into the sharp edges of the ejection-port (or with the casing reversed so the open end is jammed into the sharp edges of the slide), forcing the brass to assume the shape of the sharp edges, that makes the empty impossible to extract with the normal jam-clearing techniques. When it jams like that, the pistol is out of action. Mere fingers can't pry the empties (at least in MY .380 Guardian) off those edges. It requires pliers. A stove-pipe on the last round? Okay, but not a metal-reforming jam. I can't believe these pistols were designed to do that. Like I said, I will await the return of the pistol from NAA - and comment about that process when appropriate. sopsax
Swdavis Message Board MemberUsername: SwdavisPost Number: 23Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 07:30 pm:
I have both the G32 and .32 Seecamp in NAA rugs. You (at least I) can easily tell which is which by simply lifting the two rugs. The Seecamp is lighter and it is easy to feel the difference. The Seecamp has never failed to fire while the G32 will not fire a box of 100 without some form of failure. People think the ability to fire any type of .32 is an asset. In fact, not having to worry about rimlock with the Seecamp is an asset. Lastly, the CNC Seecamps can fire almost any of the better performing hollow points. The difference in price is only about $60 now and you can easily eat that up by sending the G32 back to NAA to get it to function correctly. Most dealers in the Dallas/FtWorth area no longer stock the G32 and I know which of the two I carry and trust. However, the G380 is another story. I think the G380 is the best .380 available.
Outdoorsman1911 Message Board MemberUsername: Outdoorsman1911Post Number: 68Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 08:29 pm:
seacamp was top dog in its time, now the guardian is topshelf.
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 146Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 09:12 pm:
Sopsax Had you by chance installed a hogue slip on grip? I had a similiar experience right after I put one of the Hogue grips on my Guardian. I finally found a very small piece of the grip was interfering with proper seating of the magazine. A little judicious triming of the grip solved the problem. Since that time I have put about 700 rounds thru with out malfunction of any sort.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 208Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 08:46 am:
"Granted the 32 weighs 2 oz more than the Seecamp, but when I hold both in my hands, I really can't tell the difference." Georgeh -------------------------------------- It's more like three oz. but who's counting. And Yes, I can feel the difference, Try testing the weight with the same hand, George. My only point in this is, the Seecamp is not a roughly made weapon.
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 12Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 10:29 am:
Phydeaux88: No, I did not install anything on my pistol after buying it new. And yes, I routinely checked the magazines to ensure they were seated while firing. I realize that with anything, some folks can have pleasant experiences right out of the box (firearms and new saxophones, for example), and others will have failures, like I've experienced with the .380 Guardian. It has now been eight days since I shipped my pistol to NAA. sopsax
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2245Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 08:06 pm:
Hi RJ: I looked it up. The weight difference between the two is 2.5 ozs. I know that there is a weight difference but when I hold them both at the same time the diffference in weight to me is slight. Now, maybe having the gun dehorned and having the Gutter Snipe sight channel machined into the slide shaved off some weight, but it couldn't be very much. I just don't know why we are arguing about the guns. If I didn't like the Seecamp, I wouldn't own three of them. Likewise, if I could have customized the Seecamp, like I had my Guardians, I most likely wouldn't have bought the Guardian in the first place. I carried Seecamps every day for years. I still plan on buying Larry's 380 version. But in real life, I now carry the Guardians, because I like having the Gutter Snipe sights, and I like the ability to feed it whatever is available. Construction wise, both use castings made at the same factory, both are machined using state-of-the-art CNC equipment, and the footprint of each are nearly identical. For me the size of a pistol is more important than its weight. My bitch with the Guardian deals more with the 380. I really think bringing its weight down is important. I also think competition is good for the consumer. Look at what you got in a 1911A1 pistol in 1975 and compare that what you get today. There are far more manufactures of the 1911A1 today than yesterday. Make a Seecamp 380 clone from a forged billet, and even though the weight would increase, its useful life would increase as well. So, my battle cry is compete NAA and Seecamp. Compete...
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 15Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 09:40 pm:
I reported in another thread about the return of my .380 Guardian today. Now I am curious about this CNC process with Seecamps. Can someone enlighten me? I bought a new .32 Seecamp a few years ago and don't know if I have an earlier model or a later (CNC) model. Does that make any difference? How could I identify my Seecamp as being CNC or . . .? Thanks! sopsax
Darvell Message Board MemberUsername: DarvellPost Number: 486Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 10:18 am:
Sandy wrote: >The Guardian >[..] >is supported by NAA Customer Service. Of all that Sandy wrote, the only one that REALLY matters is the last one. You can't beat NAA service. They stand behind their products. They don't produce guns with a 1000-round lifetime. If you wear your gun out by shooting it too much, it's covered by an NAA lifetime warranty. Try to get that from Seecamp. Why would anybody buy a limited-lifetime Seecamp when you can buy a lifetime-warranted Guardian? (That being said, _I_ would buy a Seecamp if I saw one for a reasonable price, but merely to have one, not to carry every day. You can't have to many guns.) Darvell
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 17Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 10:38 am:
Darvell: I agree - you can't have too many guns (or saxophones!!). Some folks don't buy Seecamps (or Guardians, for that matter) to shoot all the time. I bought my .32 Seecamp (and later, the Guardian) to carry concealed. I ran 200 rounds through the Seecamp (Silvertips), then cleaned it and put it in my pocket. Oh, I shoot it occasionally for the practice, but not a lot of rounds, especially enough to wear it out. And, I bought it before the .380 Guardian hit the market. And, looking back at it, my Seecamp worked right out of the box, not my Guardian. I didn't buy either based solely on their customer support. I'd rather buy a product that does not require customer support. Same with my S&W Sigma .380 - I bought it to carry concealed (before the Seecamp) and while I've shot it enough to break it in, I have not shot it enough to wear it out. None of these pieces (Seecamp, Guardian, Sigma) are for pleasure shooting, so I don't concern myself with longevity. For pleasure-shooting, I have a number of pistols that fit that bill. Like my S&W J-frame .38 revolvers - they caution owners not to use +P ammo, but that's what I carry in mine. Should I have to shoot it someday, I suspect it will get five +P rounds down the barrel okay. Longevity is not the issue. sopsax
Tokerblue Message Board MemberUsername: TokerbluePost Number: 35Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 07:49 pm:
Can someone explain the difference between a CNC Seecamp and a non-CNC Seecamp? I'm not really familiar with the Seecamps.
Richard_s Message Board MemberUsername: Richard_sPost Number: 352Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 09:26 pm:
I admire and own both the Seecamp and the Guardian. However, if I could own only one, it would be the Guardian. The reason is the Guardian's ease of maintenance. If I am going to be limited to one pocket pistol, I want to be able to carry it in any environment and not be worried about having it fouled by "muck and mud." With practice, you can field strip, clean, and reassemble a Guardian in about one minute -- and in the dark. I've never been able to do that with my Seecamp.
Dwight_frye Message Board MemberUsername: Dwight_fryePost Number: 682Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 09:53 pm:
CNC=computer numeric controls....maching center, hort, vert etc....that is computer controlled. I liked the G32 but everybody knows my problems i've had...so i won't go into it again...Good thing they have good customer service. Also the problems at this point seem to be worked out. (keeping fingers crossed)
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 18Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 05:11 pm:
Tokerblue: Apparently no one knows the differences between a Seecamp made by CNC methods and one NOT made by those methods. I've asked and you've asked . No answers. I suspect there is no difference in how the two pistols look, shoot, and last. It may even be that CNC is better, given the precision of the process, but a lot of folks tend to yearn for the past, thus the negative references to CNC manufacturing. sopsax
Tokerblue Message Board MemberUsername: TokerbluePost Number: 36Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 09:30 pm:
Sopsax, that was similar to what I was thinking. At any rate, I ended up buying a Seecamp .32 today after I traded in my Guardian .380. As much as I liked the Guardian, it was simply too heavy for pocket carry for me. I bought some Federal Hydra-Shok at Seecamp's new ammo recommendation, so hopefully, that will go well.
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 149Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:00 pm:
Tokerblue Do you really notice the 2 oz difference in weight? Thats amazing.
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 150Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:02 pm:
Tokerblue OOOOOPS sorry missed the drop in calibre from 380 to .32
Kenneth Message Board MemberUsername: KennethPost Number: 35Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 10:06 pm:
I did my research and bought the NAA .32naa. Just a bit larger and heavier than a Seecamp 32 or NAA .32, the same size and weight as a .380 but a much more powerful pistol. A caliber that equals or exceeds 9mm ballistics.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 210Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 06:33 am:
George Please don't think I am "arguing about the guns,." I just know the weight is more, and that may be the deciding factor for some people..........And the SC is not rough inside as Billinpittsburg quoted "Teddy" as saying. Heck, I like you George!
Seecamp32 Message Board MemberUsername: Seecamp32Post Number: 1Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 10:14 am:
I'm not renewing my FFL so I ordered a .380 Guardian to take a look at to see if I wanted to carry it. I thought the quality wasn't up to my .32 Seecamp. I didn't like how the grip frame is so thin at the barrel end. My Seecamp has functioned flawlessly and being the .380 isn't much a step up in power. The .380 Guardian is for sale on Gunbroker.com. I'll keep my Seecamps. Doug
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2251Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 11:41 pm:
Hi RJ: I'm glad you like me because few people do! I don't know about the internal maching of the Seecamp. But I do trust Teddy's judgment. As to weight, as to 32 ACP firearms, I agree with you that weight is important. Look at how many Kel Tec's are sold. But when you look at the Seecamp verses the Guardian, the weight difference isn't that great. But the 380, now that is different. There is a significant weight difference between the Seecamp and Guardian. In that case, weight is one of the reasons that I am going to buy a Seecamp 380 one day. But, even then, if NAA could bake a Seecamp 380 clone from a forged billet instead of a casting, I think I would pick the NAA version due to the increased life the forging would bring.
Swdavis Message Board MemberUsername: SwdavisPost Number: 24Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 07:16 am:
The internal machining of the CNC Seecamp is fine. I measured both clearances and "straightness of cut" of my Seecamp and G32 and the Seecamp is much better. The Seecamp slide-to-frame fit is perfect while the G32 slide has considerably larger clearances on one side than the other (skewed slide). Several othe
rs on the forum have reported the same situation with the G32 slide rubbing on one side of the frame. No wear marks on the Seecamp after 1500 rounds. Also, my Seecamp had no more than an 8lb trigger new, right out of the box. My G32 must have been pushing 14 lbs. NAA products are carefully thought out and durable. However, the final fit, QC and function are not always good - certainly when you consider the price you are paying. The G32 is a very simple design with relatively few parts (modified Seecamp which is modified CZ) and it should be well executed for the price.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2253Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 08:18 am:
All of my 25 and 32 caliber Seecamps+Guardian have about the same trigger pull out-of-the-box. In fact, the original trigger pull of my G380 was about the same as the Seecamp. But, I had NAA install stronger springs, and that increased the trigger pull to over 14 lbs. That's why the 380 went to Teddy Jacobson. He did so well with the 380, that I then sent him my 32.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 211Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 08:49 am:
But I do trust Teddy's judgment. GEORGEH--- ------------------------------- This will be my last try to clear this up. I do not question Teddy's word, I only questioned at what point in time did he make the statement of the SC being rough inside, before the CNC guns or after... You are a WORDSMITH aren't you? Read my words in all the posts, thank you--- RJ=
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 154Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 02:27 pm:
I rather believe that Teddy most likely looks at things with a more critical jaundiced eye than anyone else here. What the average or even more knowlegable than average person considers smooth may very well be rough to a craftsman.
Saki302 Message Board MemberUsername: Saki302Post Number: 5Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:54 am:
Here's a fair comparison: Seecamp vs. NAA .32 Weight: advantage: seecamp - it's lighter, and I can tell in my hands Size: advantage: Seecamp- It's definitely smaller and a bit thinner Sights: Big advantage- NAA- it actually HAS some! mechanicals: NAA- I liek the fact it has less mumbo jumbo (no magazine disconnect). Quality: I'd give a lsight edge to the seecamp- I've taken both apart, and my seecamp has great internals. Value: NAA for certain- it's cheaper and shoots just as well. Ammo selection: NAA for sure- shoot anything you like. The seecamp is limited to shorter JOH rounds only. My assessment favors the NAA. I own a seecamp since I bought it years go before the NAA was easy to get here in CA. I have no problems with the Seecamp I own, but for the price paid, I thinkt heNAA is a better value. Get the Seecamp if you're a rich guy who wants a slick shiny tuxedo pistol. Buy the NAA if you want something with a little better engineering to carry and shoot a lot. Yes, I do have a sharkskin holster to go with my Seecamp ;) -Dave
Saki302 Message Board MemberUsername: Saki302Post Number: 6Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 01:58 am:
PS- Kenneth, don't believe for a moment that the .32NAA hits like ANY 9mm. That would take some witchcraft and possibly a faustian deal to accomplish. In fact, the +P loadings in .380 have more measured energy than the .32NAA and make a bigger hole. I've seen gel tests confirming this. The main advantag
es I see in the .32NAA is enhanced feeding (any bottleneck bullet feeds better by design), and less perceived recoil (lighter bullets). So if someone doesn't like the kick of a small .380, the 32NAA is just the ticket. -Dave
Txcajun Message Board MemberUsername: TxcajunPost Number: 59Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 09:36 pm:
Quote: "In fact, the +P loadings in .380 have more measured energy than the .32NAA and make a bigger hole." -------------------------------------------------- To my knowlege, there is no such thing as a +P load for the 380acp. In fact, there are no +P or +P+ SAMMI standards for the 380acp. Anything that has +P on it... it's just a name or a marketing ploy.
Saki302 Message Board MemberUsername: Saki302Post Number: 13Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 06:27 pm:
Txcajun, The "+P" loads in .380 marketed by Cor-bon have a measurably higher muzzle energy than the 'standard' .380 loads offered by, say, Winchester and Federal, so they are "+P" in a sense of being loaded hotter, or to max psecs, maybe. -Dave
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2368Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 08:25 am:
The letter "P" represents pressure. Not all calibers have a "P+" loading. Firearm cartridges were designed to operate within a specific peak pressure range. However, older calibers were commonly loaded to an intended lower pressure range. This lower pressure range is commonly referred to as the "standard" pressure range. As manufacturing and materials improved, old calibers were being loaded to a higher pressure range: ergo "P+." The designation was used to alert the consumer that the cartridge should not be used in older guns. Newer calibers generally have no offical "P+" pressure range. There is no industry +P+ designation. That is just marketing; however, when it first appeared, it was used a lot to designate the difference between 9mm pistol vs 9mm SMG ammo. 9mm ammo loaded to NATO standards for SMG use had a peak cartridge pressure that exceeded the max pressure for a 9mm cartridge pistol cartridge. When the "flying ashtray" style of hollow points first came out, they need a certain volocity to expand reliability. But manufacturers were always looking for ways to improve reliability but at pressures safe for older guns. Winchester used a softer guilding metal (Silvertips); deeper scoring (Remington Golden Saber and Winchester Black Talon); big, wide hollow points (Gold Dot). For an ordinary individual worried about personal defense, P+ loadings offer very little. I've carried standard pressure MagSafe Defender cartridges for 15 years now in my pocket guns. But the bottom line: a bullet in the eye is more effective in stopping an individual than a bullet in the thigh.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2369Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 08:32 am:
Just to avoid comments, I noticed that I typed "P+" to mean "+P." I meant the same thing, I'm just not a great typist.
Michael_t Message Board MemberUsername: Michael_tPost Number: 67Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 10:30 pm:
Were is Team CorBon when we need him All CorBon 380 ammo is loaded well with in the SAMMI specs. It is not +P I under stand its the type of powder they use. Their a smaller company does same thing gets 45 230 around 1000fps and not +P That 1050fps came from a PPK/S they used for testing.Thats one reason I like CorBon use real guns for test not some test barrel.
Christi_leigh Message Board MemberUsername: Christi_leighPost Number: 1Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 04:58 pm:
It would be interesting if NAA introduced a spurred hammer for their Guardian line that would allow for a single-action pull. It would make their little pocket pistols exactly like a revolver with less kick and less bulk. The hammer could be rounded as a PPK so that it wouldn't snag. The downside of this, of course, would be that like a revolver it would easily discharge if the hammer were cocked. But, it would still be a nice "option" for those who would benefit with accuracy versus that long, hard pull at the range. Revolvers don’t have safety mechanisms either, and yet most of them have double or single action for the user.
Propigskin Message Board MemberUsername: PropigskinPost Number: 10Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 10:31 am:
According to Larry Seecamp, You can remove the mag spacer from the seecamp .32 and use regular ball ammo. Only for use on seecamps with a serial number of 31xxx and higher since they went to a higher strength steel after that number...
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 245Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 07:47 am:
Ask the man himself at link below.. http://seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl
Steelhead Message Board MemberUsername: SteelheadPost Number: 348Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 11:14 pm:
I bought the .32 NAA as soon as it was available, thinking it would be the end all and best for pocket pistol comparison. Over 500 rounds later, even with the bottlenosed design, I had FTF after FTF on each magazine with random numbered rounds jamming up. Bought 3 new mags thinking it would solve the problem, but it didn't. I did not send it back to the factory, b/c I'm not that patient. i traded it in. I now have the SeeCamp LWS .380 and couldn't be happier. Came with 3 mags and two spare recoil springs. no problems with it. And it shoots +P Magsafes just great. To me, it's well worth the $ differential to own the Seecamp. But we all have personal preferences. steelhead
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2376Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 05:51 pm:
I want a Seecamp 380. But I love my Guardian 32.
Big_dog Message Board MemberUsername: Big_dogPost Number: 1Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 09:32 pm:
I have sat and read these post on this forum for several months and now feel that I must tell of my own experience with my NAA Guardian 380. I purchased this pistol in June of this year to serve as a concealed pocket piece. I too experienced several mis-feed...mis-ejections while shooting american eagle and remington ammo at the range. I then purchased son Hogue wood grips and installed them. I started holding the pistol more firm in my hand and with an very stiff wrist. The problems decreased greatly but still had some mis-feeds. I then decided to only shoot my defense ammo which is speer gold dot hollow points when shooting this gun and I run both magazines through the gun everytime I go to the range and I then purchase a new box of defense ammo.20 dollars each time I shoot is not too much when my life may depend on it. As a matter of fact this is the only kind of ammo I run through this pistol now. Lets face it this gun was not designed for a target shooting pistol but a easy carry self defense gun. It has never mis-fed or mis-ejected while shooting the defense ammo and I carry it daily so I do trust my life to it! I welcome any questions or comments but this has worked and I no longer feel like I cant trust my Guardian. Try this and you too will be convinced!
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 246Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 05:17 pm:
Does anyone have a link, or can quote Teddy's exact words, when he says the SC is Rough inside. That keeps bothering me.
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 244Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:44 pm:
I have searched TJs articles as far back as the archives go and this is the only real comment I can find on the Seecamp "Seecamp - These little pistols look far better on the outside than they do on the inside. I owned one in the past but they are too expensive in my opinion and its hard to deal with a factory that just has an answering machine." It's found in his Jan 18, 2005 post. About half way down the page. His archives are organized by month and you have to just keep scrolling to find the date. Here is the link to the Jan 2005 archive http://actionsbyt.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_actionsbyt_archive.html
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 247Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 04:45 am:
Thank you for your search. Teddy has every thing broken down to "BS" or "Teddy". I'm sure he is a Smart fellow, but just *too much for me.* And that's just *MY way* But, I could be wrong.. Thanks again
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 245Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 04:19 pm:
I agree TJ has very strong opinions; however, on the subject of handguns I'll defer to his opinion because I won't ever have the knowledge on the subject that he possesses. It takes many many years of hands on "in the trenches" experience to aquire that level of expertise so when he says a particular handgun has a specific defect I have to believe him because I do not have the experience to argue with him. As far as Seecamps go, his biggest criticism seems to be that it is overpriced.
Barryp Message Board MemberUsername: BarrypPost Number: 1Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 04:43 pm:
.25 NAA Guardian AS far as I know NAA is one of the only Companies that will take the time to talk and answer questions Carl the Gentleman who does the upgrades is way cool and takes the time to answer YES" stupid questions IE: what are the best sights? What are the pros and con of each ? Will I get my Gun back soon? Will it KICK A&$^and so forth now they may seem like fair questions but try calling Glock or Ruger or S&W HA! they will plain and simply say don't waste my time ! no BS thats why NAA in my book is OK even the sales manager HIDI took her time talking to me and no I'm not DONJUAN on the phone HEHE and we know Women are quick Tempered but she also was way Cool as far as Seecamp's their time has passed LONG LIVE THE GUARDIAN.
Swdavis Message Board MemberUsername: SwdavisPost Number: 25Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 08:24 pm:
Not even close. The Seecamp is made from 415 stainless steel which is much stronger than the 17-4pH (630 series) stainless steel used by NAA. Seecamp workmanship and quality control are also much better. All guns are thoroughly tested to ensure they are completely reliable before being shipped, many by Larry himself. If you have questions, go to the Seecamp forum and Larry will be happy to answer all of your questions.
Steelhead Message Board MemberUsername: SteelheadPost Number: 355Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 09:03 pm:
NAA customer service is great, but when I buy guns, I expect them to work period. I don't expect to have to ever send a firearm back to have something tweaked on it to get it to quit FTE/FTFing. I read a lot of BS about "polishing feed ramps" and believe if this will solve problems then the manufacturer should polish the feed ramps before selling them. An excellent gun maker would really never need a customer service department, because all of their guns would work like Glocks.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 1Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:34 pm:
I am a FORMER Seecamp .32 owner. Worst pistol I have EVER owned. They did/do NOT have a live person answering the phone. 5-6 of my calls went to a machine. They WON'T CALL BACK. I then tried mail.Still would not respond. If you get one that works I guess they are good pistols. If you have a problem it becomes YOUR problem. THEY WILL NOT DO WARRANTY WORK. I sold it in disgust. I now own both a .32 and .380 Guardians. They are both back at N.A.A. for gutter snipe, frame stippling, and slide serrations. Kevin p.s. I work in a Auto Service Department for a living. MOST of the people on the gun sites who praise Seecamp are Seecamp employees.
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 162Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 01:27 pm:
Like I've posted before, unlike my NAA.380 (later fixed by NAA), my Seecamp .32 was flawless from the day I bought it new-in-box. It has gone BANG every time I squeezed the trigger. I am not an employee of Seecamp. As far as Glocks not having any faults, LAPD has recently pulled all Glock 21 models (I think that is a .45ACP) because of numerous failures to fire. I have yet to hear the insight on that issue, but will soon. I have two Glocks (both .40S&W) and they've worked fine. sopsax
Barryp Message Board MemberUsername: BarrypPost Number: 2Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 02:16 pm:
Hi Guys, Well as a response to your messages yes I do give you Seacamps are better finished. Which is relative to price, but as far as dependability the guardians rule I have taken the time since you posted the responses to compare guns side by side (trip to gun shop) and yes there is a difference as far as Finnish but for simplicity in maintenance and as well as reliability I believe Guardians are way more Friendly also Guardians will eat all ammo another plus now to be fair I never shot a Seacamp but the Gun Shop Guy Said the recoil was better on the NAA. And I do also believe that NAA is Way more inventive as far as new cartridges and designs another plus and in time will step up internal finishes even in the raw the NAA’s I think go bang more often than seacamp’s which like certain ammo. And with their .25NAA and .32Naa and now in the works the 32 H&R Magnum. The future looks a lot more exciting at NAA I do respect your opinions but when I buy and I will soon buy another back up Gun 4 my wife, it will be from NAA I think that say it all as far as I’m concerned. PS: I have owned the 32acp was indeed a great gun was replaced with a .25NAA bottleneck which is being upgraded right now but buddy this 25 kicks A%# the recoil on the .25NAA you can shoot all day if you can afford it I have tested it by shooting at different objects hits harder than a 32 ACP and Penetrates further and I was shooting a 4 inch 32 Walther PPK.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 248Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 02:36 pm:
"THEY WILL NOT DO WARRANTY WORK." Kevin _____________________________________ Kevin , this is just NOT TRUE, but if you behaved in the manner in which you post, maybe it's just you. You speak of being in Auto Service Dept, this is not a good reference, to most of us with experiences with Auto repairs. I am not employed by the Seecamp Co., but, I know how to get my Seecamps serviced.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 4Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 03:19 pm:
Hi Rhedley, YOU SIR ARE FULL OF CRAP. Go to THEFIRINGLINE.COM. enter Seecamp.MANY others shared this experience. They did/do not have a live person to answer the phones. Larry Seecamp ADMITS this type of activity DID HAPPEN. He says they are now better. I got burned once. Not again. Don't work for Seecamp? Gee than why are you on the competitions site trying to get loyal Guardian owners back to the fold? Are you that board? It is good you are a loyal employee, but ANYONE can see your true motives. Mine? I love the products THAT'S why I am here.You???????????? Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 249Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 03:39 pm:
Thank you Kevin, For your inspiring post. And for making my point.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 5Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 04:23 pm:
Hi Rhedley, And THANK YOU for showing us your true motives. Go to thehighroad.com. Enter North American Arms. Go to post #30. Larry Seecamp explains the Seecamp problems. Scroll up and read the other former Seecamp owners who shared my plight. As I said I own 2 Guardians. I don't see where you state to owning any, but you still are a "expert." Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 250Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 05:28 pm:
Kevin With every post, you reveal more of yourself. You should seek help, you are a very un-happy young man.
Kenneth Message Board MemberUsername: KennethPost Number: 65Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 05:51 pm:
An interesting exchange going on. I must say though that Rhedley is very thin skinned concerning any criticism of Seecamps.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 6Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 05:55 pm:
Hi Rhedley, Since you won't comment on the site referal I gave you, you must agree with me. Your personal attacks confirm this. By the way my Seecamp sn was 0275**. My .32 Guardian is AD037**. My .380 is BC090**. And yours is????????? Kevin
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2399Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 06:28 pm:
I own 3 Seecamps and 2 Guardians. None of them have had any problems. All of them were flawless. There are benefits and liabilities to each design. Seecamp was designed to be the smallest and lightest all steel 32 and 380 made. The Guardian was intended to be suitable for customization, allowing each firearm to be tailored to the needs of each individual. There is a price difference. Seecamp is more than the Guardian. There is a "stuff" difference too. If you buy a Seecamp 32 you get the gun with one mag. The Guardian 32 comes with two mags, a pouch, and a lock. There are design diferences too. The biggest difference are sights. You need an empty case and a punch to field strip a Seecamp. With a Guardian, you push a button. That all said. I still want to buy a Seecamp 380. But I also want to buy two, maybe three of the future NAA top break 32 mini revolver. Bottom line: I have no complaints about any Seecamp of NAA product or either manufacturer. I am not employed by either company. I do not manufacturer or sell any firearm related product. As to holsters, I pitch Ron Graham products because I like them. I think they are the best--period. Over the years I have purchased over 50 products from him. You disagree--fine. Buy whatever you want. You guys want a flame war--go for it. I love it when others make an ass out of themselves. It makes me feel good to know that there are others out there with that ability--sometimes I feel as though I am the only one with that talent.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 7Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 06:36 pm:
Hi Georgeh, As I said some people get Seecamps that function very well. My experience with the pistol, and the lack of service, did sour me on the product. The same can be said for just about any product. Mine is first hand experience. Others are based on opinion. Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 251Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 07:28 pm:
Fun place you have here...I entered this thead at the point where Kevin made the outrageous statement, "If you get one that works I guess they are good pistols. If you have a problem it becomes YOUR problem. THEY WILL NOT DO WARRANTY WORK." Kevin_q ______________________ This is simply NOT TRUE ! I have been calm and very civil about the whole thing. Just relating to what Kevin_q posted. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the SC Pistol. I see a lot of "Attitude" in your posting manner, that may have been your problem in your communication with Seecamp. But of course I can't *Know* that. Better luck with your other Gun purchases. Cheers ______________ Hi George, good to 'see' you again.. Still waiting on that first order,
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 252Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 07:43 pm:
"Person attack" from Kevin And "Thin skinned" from Kenneth I suggest you both re-read the posts. Kevin is frothing, throwing out gun counts by serial numbers ???? Asking how many I have,,,,,?? .....probably about 5 or 6 for every year you have been here on earth.. ______________________ --How am I doing George ?
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2401Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 08:25 pm:
Hi RJ: I haven't shot my Rohrbaugh lately. But I am going to send you some loot for your chop stick. As to the flame war, I aam just enjoying the fray.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 8Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 03:46 am:
Hi Rhedley, The noise in here must be the reason you didn't here this THE FIRST TWO TIMES but I will repeat it once again very....slowly....Go....... to thehighroad.com......enter....... North American Arms....go......to.....post....#30......AND READ THE DAMN THING. I am stating facts, and quotes from LARRY SEECAMP. All you can do insult, and throw your personal opinion around. Opinions? Everyone has one. Why are you afraid of the FACTS???????? I am on this site because I love the product. You are here to sell Seecamps. Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 253Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 07:32 am:
Kevin There is a Major difference in our posting. You are defending NAA, and condemning Seecamp. Why am I here ? To point out your mis-information of the Seecamp, plain and simple. The Seecamp Co will stand behind their product. Another point, notice how I never use any juvenile rhetoric in my posts. I always write as if I am face to face with the one I'm addressing, and avoid losing my temper. If you ever hope to make your point, I suggest you revise your posting style. Till then, Cheers PS ~ I own one of every NAA product, I speak well of them except the 380, I feel it is too heavy for Pocket Carry, but that's JUST my opinion.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 9Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 08:07 am:
Hi Rhedley, This is the FOURTH time I have explained this to you. This discussion is about the .32 Seecamp vs the .32 Guardian. I have owned BOTH. My Seecamp was a piece of crap. I could not get Seecamp to ANSWER THE PHONE OR LETTERS,so I could get it fixed. This is not just my story, others have also had this happen. LARRY SEECAMP ADMITS THIS. Still confused? Please get someone else to explain it to you. You are probably a nice guy, but you do have a comprehension problem. Kevin p.s. There is no point to make. I AM STATING FACTS. LOOK IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 254Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 08:23 am:
Do you have a link to this " POOL of TRUTH" at THR you keep sending me to,
I failed to find it. You do know how to post a link, don't you? I did a quick look, couldn't find. ________________________________________ You mentioned that I made Personal attacks towards you earlier. Here's what that looks like: "Auto Service" Huh? Got any good "Rip off" stories you could share? This is a departure from my posting style, but you are losing my interest...
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 13Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 09:18 am:
Read 3 posts up. Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 255Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 10:03 am:
With the help of a friend, I found the HighRoad you were directing me to, It is ,www.thehighroad.ORG,, NOT thehighroad.com,, A BIT OF DIFFERENCE THERE. I see where Mr Seecamp offered you an apology, on Oct of '05, yet you continue to "Bad Mouth* him, and you didn't even acknowledge him. More of yourself revealed. The $700 you paid to a greedy dealer somewhere, maybe it was a used gun? I don't hear anything on that... I'm done now.. Cheers
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 14Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 11:52 am:
Hi Rhedley, FINALLY we are on the same page. YES Larry Seecamp offeded a apology for not responding to customers who had warranty issues. I SAID THAT 21 POSTS AGO. Glad you finally realize this. NO I did not, nor will I,accept his apology. I waited 2 years, and spent $700.00 for a gun that was crap. A simple 'I'am sorry' don't cut it. ANY machine can have a problem. A reputiable company, like N.A.A. will fix the problem. Seecamp chose to ignore those who allready spent money with them. YES I will continue to tell this story when the Seecamp vs. Guardian comes up. When Seecamp was the 'only girl in town' they could get away with this type of fraud. Now that the Guardian is kicking their ass they seem to want a 'second chance.'If he wants forgiveness he can read the Bible. If he wants to sell guns he needs to clean his act up. Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 256Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:08 pm:
Really sad case ^^^
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 257Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:33 pm:
I support both NAA and Seecamp..... Both good pistols.. http://www.fototime.com/A1071E30E5705B6/standard.jpg
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 15Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 01:42 pm:
The ORIGINAL question was " What should I buy. The .32 Seecamp or the .32 Guardian." I think enough information has been provided. Kevin
Barryp Message Board MemberUsername: BarrypPost Number: 3Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 04:16 pm:
NOW NOW BOYS Here's something A blonde suspects her boyfriend of cheating on her. She goes out and buys a gun a NAA. She goes to his apartment unexpectedly and sure enough, she opens the door and finds him in the arms of a redhead. Well, now she's angry! She opens her purse to take out the gun but as she does so, she is overcome with grief. She takes the gun and points to her head. The boyfriend yells, "No, honey, don't do it!!" "Shut up," she says, "You're next." ok it that don't do ya here A large family were going to have Thanks Giving dinner togther. The two grandma's of the family were sick of people eating the pudding the night before, so they hatched a plan. They put BB Gun pellets in the pudding so they could see who ate it. The next morning, Little Tommy came down from his room and said "Grannie, Grannie, there were BBGun pellets in my pee pee last night." Then Little Sally came down and said "Grandma, there was BB Gun pellets in my pee last night." Then Big Shaun came down yelling "Help! Help! I just shot my girlfriend in the mouth. She went down fine but came up with a hole going right through her tongue and out the side of her mouth!"
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 16Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 04:24 pm:
Kevin
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 258Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 08:52 pm:
" YES I will continue to tell this story when the Seecamp vs. Guardian comes up. When Seecamp was the 'only girl in town' they could get away with this type of fraud. Now that the Guardian is kicking their ass they seem to want a 'second chance.'If he wants forgiveness he can read the Bible. If he wants to sell guns he needs to clean his act up." KQ ________________________________________ "...they could get away with this type of fraud."Kevin q This could be Libelous, you do know what that means don't you? Maybe you should come over and talk to the "man" about it..
Seecamp Message Board MemberUsername: SeecampPost Number: 1Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 09:33 pm:
Hi folks, I don't think anyone will be able to dig up any negative comments I've ever made about the NAA Guardian even though it is a competitor of ours. Competition is good. If there were one perfect gun for everyone there would be no gun magazines and there would be nothing for us gun folk to talk about. Competition increases sales for the individual competitors. No one would be interested in watching football if they didn't think at least two teams had the chance to win the superbowl. Competition is good. It's healthy. It encourages consumer satisfaction. It encourages innovation. I've never badmouthed NAA or Kel Tec, and I've never heard of the owners of those companies badmouthing anything we do. I'm posting here for the first and hopefully only time because Kevin Quinlan has made charges on THR and NAA forums that I hope he'll repeat over at seecamp.com so we can discuss the charges and I can respond. I may just plead guilty to everything once I've heard his case. Kevin has been invited but never taken up the offer. Read the link at http://seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=MYTH;action=display;num=1133798170 I apologize for intruding. NAA is a good company that makes wonderful guns I'm sure shooters are proud to own. I'm not here to put down NAA. I' just like to be able to respond to the Quinlan charges and this is not the site to do it. Come on over and post, Kevin.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2402Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 09:58 pm:
Hi Larry: That was a very gracious response.
Phydeaux88 Message Board MemberUsername: Phydeaux88Post Number: 271Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 10:23 pm:
Seecamp Pretty classy Being a businessman myself I second your comments on competition
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 17Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 07:20 am:
Hi Larry, I really don't think the term "charges" that you use to describe my situation with your company is accurate. "Charges" are something that are unsubstianciated. On Octobet 15th, 2005 at thehighroad, you state "I'm sure whatever experiences you had at the time are as described accurately and I owe you an apology" You further state" The only thing that disturbs me, and I by no means intend to imply that you did this in any of your posts, is for folks to infer that whatever poor customer service we had eight or ten years ago was the result of a customer be damned attitude.............Because the office is understaffed some calls go neglected, and so it goes with everything else. I would have been pissed if I were a customer during some of those days." Actually it looks like we AGREE with my statement about the phones, and lack of warranty work. The real kicker is that you continued to make, and sell NEW pistols but didn't have the time for your existing customers. On the few occasions I have had issues with my Guardians the phone is answered by a very professional young lady on the first ring, and she connects me to Carl, in the service department, who is THE BEST. The fact that you are still in business would indicate that you have learned a few things from the competition. Kevin
Ghen Message Board MemberUsername: GhenPost Number: 1Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 09:14 am:
Well let me just jump in here with both feet. 1st of all I don't work for anyone but myself, I don't sell guns, and I don't repair them. Also I Am one of those people that back in the early 90's sent in an order form to get on the waiting list for a Seecamp and never heard anything back. Yes a few letters and faxes went unanswered as well. For a long time I hated the company but loved the guns. Then I found the Seecamp home page/forum and was skeptical because of my experience. I lurked for a while and found Larry to be extremely responsive to questions, comments, suggestions etc. Now Kevin I am going to say that many of your comments strike me as dishonest, and I think you are just Seecamp bashing because you had experiences similar to mine. You state you left messages on the Seecamp machine. No you didn't. I know because I called that friggin machine dozens of times (and sent faxes to it) and it has NEVER taken messages (it said so in the recording). You state you paid $700 after waiting 2 years. The only people that paid above retail were those who didn't want to wait 2 or so years and bought them from people who had them, thereby circumventing the long wait. Why would you wait two years and then still pay scalper prices? Also in your last post "charges" are not "something that are unsubstianciated.(sic)" There are substanciated charges, and unsubstanciated charges. Larry simply invited you over to his forum to hammer out what is what. You haven't done so, and I think that is because an airing out of the facts will expose your dishonesty. Above all you seem to be unable to let go of your anger and see things as they are now. Does Seecamp as a company desrve some censure for having bad customer service in the past...yes. If someone cleans up their act should we continue to judge them on the way things used to be, or do we congratulate them for learning from their mistakes and improving? I think unless you are willing to head on over to the Seecamp forum and lay it all on the table it is a reasonable assumption that you are lying, and simply have an axe to grind. Whattya say? GHEN
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 259Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 10:57 am:
Ghen I don't think you left anthing out. I thank for filling in "Between the Lines" of what I was trying to put across. Kevin Q next post will be the one a lot of us here have been waiting for..It will show us all what he is made of..
Barryp Message Board MemberUsername: BarrypPost Number: 4Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:41 am:
AND THE PEOPLE SAID AMEN! That Was Beautiful Someone hand me a Napkin Look this seems to be going on and on a prudent person would choose to resolve this issue who knows it may work out in your best interest Larry may give you a new Seacamp or not but one thing is certain nothing ventured nothing gained Peace be with you my brother life is too short to be in disharmony if you can’t resolve it dissolve it word!
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 18Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 11:57 am:
Hi Ghen,(or it it Mrs. Seecamp, I see it's your first post) Wrong on both counts. Read Larry's own words. HE DID NOT DISPUTE EITHER ISSUE. I 'm not sure how you feel qualified to. It is humorous to see that, like your friend Rhedley, you must result to personal attack, rather than deal with facts. Character shows. Kevin
Ghen Message Board MemberUsername: GhenPost Number: 2Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:39 pm:
Mrs. Seecamp...that's actually pretty funny "touche". A search of many online forums in this genre will show I have a long posting history as GHEN. I was drawn to this forum specifically because of this thread. The issues Larry doesn't dispute are the customer service issues, not the specific issues I pointed out. Those still ring as non-factual. I cannot fault you for attacking my character, as I certainly have attacked yours. My response is that I will only state things that are facts, and that I can either: A) Back up, or B): Leave for others to verify with all of the information. You seem unwilling to do either...so I say again (the sound of a gauntlet being thrown is appropriate here) go to the Seecamp forum and post your detailed history, and see what happens. Here is the link: http://seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl I'll bet you don't, but I hope you do. Either way whatever our differences I hope you have a great holiday.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 19Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 01:51 pm:
Hi Ghen,(or Mrs. Seecamp) My situation is as described. Larry offered a apology for this. He would not have done this if it were not true. He may be a bigger person than I, but I don't think a apology does it. I, and many others were screwed. HE made the decission to ignore his existing customers, and concentrate on making more pistols, rather than fixing those with problems. There was a time when there was a two year wait for Seecamps. Not now. There is a reason for that. I am also on 5-6 other firearm sites. This is only the second time I have recounted this story, and in BOTH cases someone else brought the Guardian vs Seecamp issue up. I really don't see a reason to continue this discussion so I will give you, and your friend, the final word. Kevin
Seecamp Message Board MemberUsername: SeecampPost Number: 2Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 03:18 pm:
In the FWIW department Kevin mentioned that the serial number of his pistol was 0275XX. We did find a record for this pistol since he sent in his warranty card with the last two numbers filled in. The pistol had a dealer price at the time of $275.00. The suggested retail was $339. It was shipped on 1-4-96 to a gun store in Illinois. Mr. Quinlan bought the pistol from a dealer in Indiana on 5-31-96, about five months later. Our records show the pistol has never been returned here for repair, so the shooter to whom Kevin sold the gun apparently did not experience any problems. It might have been the ammo or it could have been limp wristing that caused the problem. :-) We have never refused to do warranty work. My apology is for the speed with which the work was done. We did the best we could but were very strapped for manpower both in the shop and the office. Although we officially have a one year warranty, the fact is that we have yet to bill anyone for parts or labor on any repair work we have done during the entire time we've been in business. We can document the $275.00 we got for the pistol and the shipping date, etc. It's not our fault KQ paid $700 for the gun. If he waited two years for the pistol five of those months are not attributable to us. North American makes a fine gun and I'm glad KQ has found a company that keeps him happy.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 260Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 03:49 pm:
"Well, bye" KQ quote from the Movie "Tombstone"
Scion Message Board MemberUsername: ScionPost Number: 1Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 06:49 pm:
I've been watching this discussion and have finally been pushed to register here so as to comment on the K.Q. Vs Seecamp battle. There are two conclusions I've reached; 1) Larry Seecamp is a Class Act. Willing to admit mistakes, respond factually, and be a gentleman. 2) KQ is a spoiled brat. If he goes through life with the same attitude he displayed here I imagine he gets a lot of abuse, deservedly so. Seecamp Vs. Guardian-- both fine guns.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 21Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 04:34 am:
Hi Scion, Gee just like Ghen it's the first post for you also. "Class acts" don't have to use their family and friends as "ringers." The product should speak for itself. Kevin p.s. hope Larry has a small family. I really am tired of this.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 261Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 05:45 am:
You are a really funny person, you seem to have it all figured out. First Post equates [=] Friend or family ! ? There's just no fooling you!
Scion Message Board MemberUsername: ScionPost Number: 2Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 05:50 am:
Kevin, I couldn't help but notice your first post was Dec. 4. Please don't presume the voice of wisedom here, we're both new to the forum. No, I'm not family, however I'd be happy to be concidered a friend of Mr. Seecamp, but alas we've never met, so I guess that makes me merely a casual observer. Everyone posting is sorry you had a bad experience, but you really seem the exception, not the rule. It is the manner with which you respond, not your message that invites scorn...lighten up a little.
Wbaird7 Message Board MemberUsername: Wbaird7Post Number: 3Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 06:18 am:
Kevin, Please take you complaints and claims over the the Seecamp forum as Larry has so graciously requested. Regards Bill PS My Third post, lets see I guess in Kevins mind that makes me Larry's third cousin or a close friend twice removed.
Sub40man Message Board MemberUsername: Sub40manPost Number: 3Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 07:41 am:
I am glad that KQ has given up the final word. This horse is as dead and beaten as it can be. I have no clue what would satisfy him in making this problem from long ago go away. I am disappointed that he has been disrespectful to two of the most reputable men in the industry. I believe that the LWS32 is one of the finest pistols on the planet. (And I don't yet own one.)
Ghen Message Board MemberUsername: GhenPost Number: 3Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 08:32 am:
And his claim that he waited two years has been shown to be false! How can you wait two years to buy one used that only came on the market 5 months before he bought it? Maybe he means he "looked" for two years. Either way I gotta run, family dinner at Larry's house tonight!
Michael_t Message Board MemberUsername: Michael_tPost Number: 75Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 10:17 am:
Well since my orginal Quenstion started this mess. I must confess Iam Larrys long lost brother. I knew this would drag him out and I would then be able to track him down. It Worked!!!! Oh I bought a 1979 mustang new and fell thru the floor(true) before car was 2 yrs old. Ford wouldn't fix under warrenty. Told me car was designed for a 150lb person I weighted 230 at time. Should I go on car forums and tell world what a piece of crap my 1979 Mustang was and don't buy a Mustang because Ford won't fix the Dam things. I paid 12,ooo and sold for 3ooo 2 years later. Waited since 1965 to own it also. (Took while to save up money)
Kenneth Message Board MemberUsername: KennethPost Number: 66Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 03:22 pm:
Well, I followed the thread and even added my 2 cents,and I must say the Seecamp people are the pile on winners. There was a time when I REALLY wanted one the mythical Seecamps, but knew that even if I could afford one I'd not live long enough to aquire one. Now that Seecamp has hardcore competition from NAA it appears Seecamp wants to be gracious. Well, we who wanted a quality pocket pistol and did not care to stand in line for 2 years and spend $500-&700 have found it via NAA.
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 262Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 07:46 am:
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Pocketgun Message Board MemberUsername: PocketgunPost Number: 21Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 04:36 am:
Hmm, I bet Kenneth is actually Kevin's dad! In any event, whether Seecamp's customer service was once bad really has nothing to do with the original question. What needs to be considered is Seecamp's current customer service, as well as NAA's. IMO, both are very good, at least from what I have read on their respective forums.
Scion Message Board MemberUsername: ScionPost Number: 7Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 06:25 am:
I think Kenneth works for Kevin, but be that as it may, I appreciate being termed a winner. That was nice. I do agree that anyone who paid $700 for even a Seecamp was TAKEN. Mine was less than half that, but worth it IMHO.
Steelhead Message Board MemberUsername: SteelheadPost Number: 370Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 10:36 am:
I bought a NIB Seecamp .380 and did pay around $700 for it. Seems a supply / demand issue to me. It was the first one I've seen for sale in several gunshops in different states. As I am a collector, I had a need for the .380 rather than the $700 I parted with. I made a rational decision for me. Now if someone is making a lot less $ than I do and pays $700 for a "working" gun, they'd better have done their homework. There's a lot of guns out there that are much less expensive, that are more powerful and work reliably for defensive carry. The Seecamp has been worth it. Never had a problem and it's on my ankle now. NAA makes great guns too and often find their way into my pocket(s) for backup / hideout guns. I need to get a small NAA revolver for the collection and want to know if the .17 recoil in that small revolver is much less than the .22 magnum? My dad had an old NAA in .22Mag, and I remember the recoil. Any suggestions? Steelhead PS: Kevin, this is a forum for trading knowledge about firearms, not for personal and company attacks. See if your "Auto" Employer offers a "Help" line for you to call and quit taking up room on this board with your childish complaints. You're welcome to come back when you've fired over 100,000 rounds and may actually know something.
Nicole Message Board MemberUsername: NicolePost Number: 618Registered: 08-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 12:49 pm:
I already have 3 Guardians which I am not giving up but I just picked up a .32 Seecamp, I seem to have a thing for tiny guns. The seecamp makes me appreciate even more the Guardian's ease of takedown and reassembly! I was hoping the Seecamp could be a front pocket gun but it sticks up a bit, a longer shirt would cover it. I must say I don't completely get the magazine disconnect. It says not to apply trigger pressure upon magazine removal but, once the mag is completely removed is it then OK to pull the trigger and not destroy the gun? You can leave a round chambered but remove the mag and keep it from being fired but I want to know if you shouldn't go ahead and unload it so someone doesn't mess up the gun? The seecamp seems delicate and I don't want to mess it up.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2425Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 09:10 pm:
Hi Nicole: I've been shooting for just over 40 years now. But I've been into pocket guns since only the mid-to-late minis. And like yourself, I am also addicted to small firearms. I own 3 Seecamps. I'm not a big fan of the mag safety. As to the mag release, I don't care. In fact I tend to prefer the Seecamp European style mag shoe instead of a Browning style mag release on small handguns. But I can adapt. I don't know that I would call the Seecamp delicate, but I would call the Guardian more robust. As to field stripping the Seecamp, I would call it a true-pain-in-the-ass. You need an empty case, and a punch. But, on the Guardian, while stripping it is easy, I always find reassembly a pain.
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 26Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 05:46 am:
Hi Steelhead, #1 The information that I provided was first hand, and the problems were admitted by Larry Seecamp on thehighroad.org.(Hate to confuse you with facts) #2 I passed the 100,000 round mark around 1970. #3 I was unaware this was YOUR site. Since it doesn't appear it is you can; A Ignore my posts B Report me to the site sponsor I do find it somewhat humorous that Seecamp owners must ALWAYS resort to personal attacks rather than sticking to the facts. Is it because you finally realize that you spent too much money for a inferior product and now must try to justify it? Kevin
Gary_a Message Board MemberUsername: Gary_aPost Number: 1Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 08:53 am:
Kevin, I read quite a fair number of different forums and you've been popping up a fair amount lately with the same complaint (from years ago, I might add). You said, "you finally realize that you spent too much money for a inferior product" but if I understand your complaints correctly, YOU are the one who is mad because you spent too much money for an inferior product. I once over-spent for a Seecamp because I didn't want to wait. Very soon I'm getting a new Seecamp .32 for 400. In both cases I knew/know what I'm doing. Didn't you? Isn't it a bit wearing to be so upset for so long over something that in the final analysis is not that big a deal? You made your mistake. You've spoken your complaint very clearly without amguity. You won't buy a Seecamp again. You're happy with NAA (as am I). For your own sake, man, forget it. Life is too short. Move on. I've re-read this to ensure I've made no personal attack and now I'll post it.
Sopsax Message Board MemberUsername: SopsaxPost Number: 178Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 11:44 am:
Kevin: Your generalizing is wearing thin. I am a Seecamp owner and I have not resorted to personal attacks in discussing my Seecamp and NAA380 - I stuck to the facts. To say that Seecamp owners ALWAYS resort to personal attacks is untrue - and over-the-top. Give it up, PLEASE! sopsax
Big_dog Message Board MemberUsername: Big_dogPost Number: 7Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 01:55 pm:
This is my 2 cents. I personally purchased a Guardian .380. We have a choice as to what we feel we would like to have. Sopsax chose the Seecamp. I think both are great tools to perform the task they were purchased for. I hope that none of us will have to use their guns for life threat reasons. I agree there should be no personal attacks on anyone in this forum because if we think about it, all of us has alot in common we are on here day after day to read and talk about our interests guns! Come on lets be good to each other and respect each others choices. Big Dog
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 266Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 07:31 pm:
Don't mess with Kevin, he's the only person in the world that can leave messages on a FAX Machine.
Georgeh Message Board MemberUsername: GeorgehPost Number: 2428Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 08:44 pm:
The horse is dead...STOP BEATING IT!!!
Rhedley Message Board MemberUsername: RhedleyPost Number: 267Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 06:51 am:
"I really don't see a reason to continue this discussion so I will give you, and your friend, the final word." Kevin -----------------------snip---------- Just trying to get Mr K Q to stand by his statement. [above]
Erh Message Board MemberUsername: ErhPost Number: 99Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 11:51 am:
RJ & Larry: You two have class..! As for K_q (Quakity): HE; must be who my ol' Opa used to speak of when he'd say: "Eric, always remember; there ARE many more horses Ass's, than horse's.. you'll see..!" K_q - I wish you'd just stop commenting on; Well, anything; you don't seem to understand a thing..; ever..! As always, My best to you & yours, (erh)
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 63Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 04:17 pm:
Hi Erh, And you remind me what I was told long ago. "Some people are too stupid to F--- with."
Erh Message Board MemberUsername: ErhPost Number: 101Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 08:43 am:
K_q - I might actually agree with that if I could understand what that means... I think it goes something more like: "It's really stupid to F--- with people..! On a different note: If you have what NAA deems to be genuine warranty issues, ask NAA for a UPS account # to cover the shipping! Being in business myself I'll say that I wouldn't "Volunteer" free shipping either, but I certainly woudn't deny it if it were asked for; for VALID reasons only! I have shipped to NAA free of charge twice so far w/ no problem after they deemed the issues valid, & I asked for a shipping #. (This may not be their policy; I can't/ won't speak for NAA - I am not affiliated..!) This is merely MY experience thus far..! I will be purchasing more NAA's in the future, & an LWS very soon and likely a Rohrbaugh R9s as well... RJ and a few others up there ^^^; I'm glad you & some others ^^^ "GET IT..!" Anyway, as always, My best to you and yours, (erh) P.S. - K_q - I'm still thinkin' that you got pissed at me for buying that early SS bottom G.32acp magazine recently, & before you had a chance to claim it... My offer to send it to you free of charge still stands if that was the case; perhaps that will help to calm you down!? I really enjoy this board, but even I'LL admit that it's feeling just a bit like the "Bickering Bitch Board" around here as of late... K_q - About the Mag, let me know... I've been "Out-of-Line" once or twice on this board, but prefer to be easy going... Peace; OHM; etc...
Kevin_quinlan Message Board MemberUsername: Kevin_quinlanPost Number: 65Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 02:15 pm:
Hi Erh, Find a VERY slow witted seven year old. He MAY be able to explain it to you, in words you can understand.
